ABERS - it would seem so!

What happened to the rule in English that 'and' and 'but' were joining words (to allow people to breath) and, therefore, should never be used at the beginning of a sentence.

Grrrr!

(yes going over to the grumpy old gits thread soon)

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Moon

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hevans:

ABERS:

OldBoy:

English is a minefield where grammar is involved. Most spellings depend on usage, so the more it is used even if wrong, the more correct it becomes.

So we just perpetuate sloppiness!

No, it's part of an evolutionary process as the language develops - people are inherently lazy. However, any evolutions must ensure that the precisions of the language are not affected. This is where sloppiness has its greatest detrimental impact and leads to ambiguity in the expression.

However, sloppiness in spelling isn't nearly as bad as improper use of punctuation, which can change the meaning of the sentence entirely.

If you want a real lesson in grammar, then have a butcher's at some Dickens - fantastic use of grammar and punctuation.

H.

So H,  was the apostrophe in 'butcher's' deliberate - maybe a check to see if we noticed?  In my understanding of apostrophe use, it shouldn't be there,  Please feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong

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Moon

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moonlustie:

hevans:

If you want a real lesson in grammar, then have a butcher's at some Dickens - fantastic use of grammar and punctuation.

So H,  was the apostrophe in 'butcher's' deliberate - maybe a check to see if we noticed?  In my understanding of apostrophe use, it shouldn't be there,  Please feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong

Yup, it should be there because it's a possessive case noun, and a slang shortening of "butcher's hook", or "look".

H.

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hevans:

moonlustie:

hevans:

If you want a real lesson in grammar, then have a butcher's at some Dickens - fantastic use of grammar and punctuation.

So H,  was the apostrophe in 'butcher's' deliberate - maybe a check to see if we noticed?  In my understanding of apostrophe use, it shouldn't be there,  Please feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong

Yup, it should be there because it's a possessive case noun, and a slang shortening of "butcher's hook", or "look".

H.

It did cross my mind ... I just love to tease, sorry

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Moon

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moonlustie:

It did cross my mind ... I just love to tease, sorry

I'd guessed that! Now I've something to report in the "what made me grin today" thread!

H.

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martin_hurton:

I should have known how this would have turned out...wish I hadn't asked now  

From my point of view (for what it is worth), I left school 13 years ago, wasn't great at English even then, but I can read and write (even if it's not always correct!).  I haven't had to write very much since then, it's not something that I am required to do in my job and so I admit that what I did learn has slipped.  I guess we all have our strengths and for some it's English grammar, for others it might be mathematics, etc. 

The English language is changing a lot, and I spent a good part of my career working with American kit so all of what I read and was trained on was written in American.  There are lots of spelling differences and I still use the American spellings now without realizing   I now find the same with the English language, as OB pointed out, especially with the internet.  Thank god I've avoided text messages!

I don't think that it is necessary to look down on people who can't spell or use grammar as well as you can.  They could look down on you for not understanding quantum physics...

ABERS:

How important do you think a title is? Almost everyone gives their images titles, me included. Should a picture not be able to stand alone?

I have a friend who is adept at finding the right words for a title to his pictures, but the pictures are cr*p, and he will admit it. But he says people will say of him in the future, "He couldn't take a picture to save his life, but his titles were something else".

I don't bother with titles for every image, and my own collection doesn't have any, but when uploading to my website I put a title, usually factual such as the place name.  For competition uploads it requires a brief statement about the image, and a title.  When you visit a gallery you don't see "_DC2745934" written below the image do you?  It's not difficult to change the name to "Lake View" or "Snowdon" for display purposes. 

 

Class dismissed

 

I can't see the original post but I think it was Martin's.

I really hope I didn't come across as putting anyone down because I would really hate to do that - we have all been educated differently and I respect that.  My job involves correcting English and punctuation on a daily basis, it's a habit - I really hope I haven't offended anyone.

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Moon

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One that always annoys is 'could of' instead of 'could have' - what does that mean??

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a few mediocre pics

sue allen:

One that always annoys is 'could of' instead of 'could have' - what does that mean??

It could of course mean that they've completely botched the "could've" contracted verb.

Sigh...I've got to get a life...

H.

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Well I had a little spare time today and decided to look into the history of the apostrophe, like you Hugh, I also probably need to get a life, at least with me though it's only words, not numbers as well.

Seemingly, the apostrophe fist made an appearance in the English language in the early 16th Century, being derived from the Greek for "Turning Away" or "Omission".

It was used to mark dropped letters, the English printers then adopted it for this purpose, it was much later, in the 17th century, that printers began to include an apostrophe before the "s" in singular possessive cases and it was not until the 18th century that printers began to use it after plural possessives as well.

So it seems apparent that without the printers adoption and adaptation of the apostrophe to make typesetting easier, the apostrophe would never have become the anomaly that it is today. In other words, it's all the fault of the likes of Future Publishing and its forebears that the English language is in the pickle that it is today over its use.

Any denials JD?

I must confess that I did read the "Eats, shoots and leaves" book by Lynne Truss and found it quite fascinating. For those interested in the origins of punctuation, it's very informative.

H.

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Peter J. Jackson:

Any denials JD?

None whatsoever :D

It's interesting how print has influenced the English language. If you're also interested in how typography has changed due to computer sloppiness, this is a really interesting article:

http://www.recedinghairline.co.uk/files/c1c3be2fda2b218e858029a4bde7e96c-397.html

The writer, I should point out, is the Deputy Editor of MacFormat, who sits behind me

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James De Vile
digitalcameramagazine.co.uk
Future Publishing

JD:

The writer, I should point out, is the Deputy Editor of MacFormat, who sits behind me

Ah, is that dedicated to the Scottish version of typesetting, where, I presume, most is deep fried?

Having read through it, one point that I thought interesting was the use of the decimal in typesetting prices.

Only £17.99!
Again, laziness and the democratisation of typesetting mean that we've lost the use of the correct interpunct in prices. £17.99 should be correctly rendered £17·99. After decimalisation in 1971, a period was only supposed to be used if technical limitations meant that a middle dot couldn't be printed.

The reason for my interest is my participation in a standards body, where they have mandated that the comma be used for decimal places, instead of a full stop or middle dot. Needless to say, the comma is the standard for many other languages (French, German, Dutch), but really buggers up cutting and pasting into Excel. Numerous members of the commitee have complained (I would add to excess, but as a member of this group I don't believe you can complain about this enough) and learned to live with this bone-headed decision with great grumpitude.

The history of the decimal point is also an interesting read …
H.

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Good afternoon class

Quote Moonlustie "However, sloppiness in spelling isn't nearly as bad as improper use of punctuation, which can change the meaning of the sentence entirely.Unquote.

In this respect I couldn't agree more and it is for this reason that punctuation is generally left out of legal documents e.g. Last Will and Testaments leaving no place for misunderstanding.

Here however is another bone of contention - the use of 'z'. Which is correct organisation or organization?

Organisation is the English spelling,organization is American English-both are right dependent on where you are at the time.

kidney:

Organisation is the English spelling,organization is American English-both are right dependent on where you are at the time.

Apparently there's a bit more to it than that because there are some verbs that must be spelled with -ise because the ending is a compound one, part of a larger word, and isn’t an example of the suffix. An example is compromise, where the ending is -mise, from Latin missum, something sent or placed. Some other examples spelled -ise are verbs formed from nouns that have the s in the stem, such as advertise or televise.

English - what a confusing and living language.